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I think I have a tiger by the tail or maybe tale, but I am trying to understand and maybe establish the basis for the Cavalier line by Conn - that is develop a Cavalier serial number dating system much like that developed by Christine at the Conn Loyalist. There is alot of speculation, including the accepted Pan American list dating as being aprapo. However, I could not make sense using the Pan Ameican accepted listing owing to the leading zero (0) on many of the horns I have seen or have. Additionally Cavalier seems to have a later start date.

So I have decided to do a study on trumpetmaster.com to see where it could go. Here's the link: It's in the forum under vintage trumpets / cornets and titeled 'Cavalier Serial Numbers' Please share any information you may have. I can use pictures, model numbers, serial numbers and anything that confirms the date of manufacture like an invoice. A warranty card can even help. I have been through the Catalog here. I monitor Ebay and other auction sites and search the Internet.

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If you can measure your horn for length, bell diameter and bore that would be appreciated. Based on what I have on model numbers, bore may be the distinguishing feature.

I have updated this forum topic at trumpetmaster with the following: On this study, here is where I am so far: 1) I have 88 brass horn serial numbers that seem to fit a Cavalier serial number system. 2) Of the serial numbers: 33 - trumpet, 28 - cornet, 10 Mellophone, 5 - Euphonium, Baritone or Temor Horn, 9 Trombone, 3 Sousaphone. 3) The lowest number is 022 on a mellophone. 4) The highest number is 332184 on a sousaphone. 5) The lowest Cornet is 01447, the higherst cornet is 65046. 6) The lowest trumpet is 03186, the highest trumpet is 102751.

7) I was not able to see pictures of all the horns for which I got serial numbers, so I cannot verify everything. For example many people refer to the Cavalier cornet as a trumpet. But of the cornets I did see all were of the design commonly refered to as a model 90A. 8) I found three basic design differences: A) No Brace in mouthpipe upper to lower in front of tuning slide, straight braces to bell, B) Angular curved brace on mouthpipe upper to lower in front of tuning slide, angular curved braces to bell C) Straight brace on mounthpipe upper to lower in front of tuning. Slide, straight braces to bell 9) Like the Cornets, I was not able to see pictures of all the trumpets. Again, similarly they were all 'peashooters' and braced like the cornets. 10) All the mellophones were similar that had pictures, some had the Eb crook installed.

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11) All the Euphoniums, baritones or tenor horns, I saw looked similar. 12) Of the trombones I saw, there were differences on the spit valve.

Of those that mentioned dimemsions, all had 7' bells and about 45' long. 13) Of all the brass instrumets, the highest number with a leading '0' was a peashooter with curved angular bracing at 019001. The next trumpet was 21450. 14) The highest cornet with aleading '0' was 018605. The next cornet was 20821. 15) The highets Tombone was 05007. The next rombone number was 60XX.

16) The stencils because of the leading '0' that seem to fit the Cavalier numbers include American Victory and Velvetone. 17) Other stencils that seem to because of serial number proximity and design are Continental (some follow Pan American enumeration), Bell Tone and Champion. This may be an issue because of closeness in design to the Pan American line itself, but the numbers are lower than the accepted range of the 'P' listing. 18) Owing to the lack of ability to confirm all the serial numbers by picture, I do not have a statistically large enough sample to draw conclusions yet. 19) What I believe based on what I have seen: A) the leading '0' probably stopped around the number 20000 for cornets and trumpets. The leading '0' may have stopped at 5999 for Cavalier trombones, C) Cavalier horns and their stencils follow the cavalier system D) Cavalier trombone serial numbers may or may not follow the rest of the brass line at least as it relates to when the leading '0' stopped.

There will be more to come. Please comment based on your experiences. Kenton, good question, but that's the problem so far.

While some do mention a date for the horn, it is either based on the Conn Loyalist Pan American List or a guess or an opinion if you will. So far no definitive proof of date has been offered or indicated. For this kind of study, I believe it is best to base it on facts only. Opinions or guesses no matter how likely to be true can only be used as guides, hopefully to get to the facts. Once I get a statistcally valid sample, I may be able to offer some kind of estimate based on the accepted start dates for the various types of instruments.